I've spent the last 3 years on OS X and I'm contemplating taking a job as the only admin at an exclusively Linux based office - both server and desktop! - and I am feeling some dread at the proposition.

This doesn't help.

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Bummer. For what it's worth, I can't run FF3 at work either due to version skew.

I wonder if you could offer your legions of internet fanboys an "internship" where they would come over and make your computers work.

On the other hand, running ancient Linux kinda fits in with the green-screen look of the place.

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http://jwz.livejournal.com/846523.html?thread=16432827#t16432827

srsly, don't believe him when he says this is 'unhelpful' advice, he follows his advice in his 9-5 and since (to quote him) he builds shit that "doesn't break" it affords him so much free time he can do other gigs as well. I think the main reason he sez 'unhelpful' is because he needs to keep other people from realizing what a choice idea that is because then his sweet gigs might dry up.

l00n1x requiring huge amounts of timewaste on solved problems is like THE POINT/main feature. Like, the douche wrote a unix-clone from scratch, c'mon!

4 DAYS? z0mg, I can't stomach 4 minutes of linux troubleshooting these days, weighing the merits of filesystems that may or may not claim journaling as some revolutionary feature (can we please pay attention to actually interesting filesystem developments, it's like 2008).

Sorry this is turning into h8 on linux rant.

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One OS X server could do the job, despite the showstarting premium.

With the 'unlimited clients license' it could serve the kiosks from within a sandbox of some kind, and then a second sandbox (or a user-grid right 'on the metal,' in any case one separate from the kiosks,) could serve the club's other computary needs, (just to pimp that single server license to the max.)

But it would not be free.

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Free is defined in many ways it turns out, as I'm fond of saying - I'm all about the free software movement: I don't pay for software.

He could totally warez leopard server if he wanted.

That said, the choice to simply leave it as it is is fine too it's not expending more energy. While this was a while ago, my friend Bob Beck had a windows9x lab @ UofAlberta that would reimage nightly or on crash/reboot whichever came first - I mean some problems it's not worth addressing too much if you wipe clean and reinstall in an automated fashion. So the distro he's using is from 2003, it has a browser has much really changed that's worth caring about on a kiosk since then?

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The hell with "free", it wouldn't be cheap.

I'd replace the kiosks with Mac Minis in a heartbeat if I could get them for $100 each (every six months, since that's how long I imagine they'd last in this environment).

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apple tvs (used) are still double that price point at least and egads futzing with those to the point of making them usefully running OSX is a pain that almost makes your four days wasted seem reasonable, if you even had a connector you could hook up to your monitors (I'm guessing the hdmi on the newer appletvs is a waste since you presumably have vga in on the monitors).

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OS X server could do the job

Quite possibly. But he already has a working server. It's the clients that are crashing...

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or you ran dissociate.el on some lame ass forum.

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You are making the common error of mistaking "programming" for "system administration".

I have always -- always -- despised the latter. Just because I could do it doesn't mean I derive any joy from it at all. It's bullshit. Like I said in 1998 (JFGI), it's like banging rocks together and being proud that you've re-derived fire from first principles.

Since you asked an insulting question, I'll give you a pompous analogy in response. Let's say you meet someone who designs skyscrapers for a living. And you say to him, "wow, you know a lot about engineering! Hey, my toilet keeps backing up and there's shit all over the floor, can you come over and clean that up for me? Your buildings have toilets, right? You must know all about how toilets work."

Yeah. I know a lot about how toilets work.

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Åctually, I think your analogy about sysadmining applies to programming most of the time too! Sysadmining just takes it to another level. It's part of why I've learned as little as possible about sysadmining - I think if you display any aptitude at it, people expect you to do it for them! I've trained the family to ask my brother-in-law.

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You assume being able to fix something and enjoying fixing it are the same thing.

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Well, neither in this instance since it seems he did not enjoy fixing the Linux box nor did he accomplish the task.

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I often give up on technical problems out of hatred, whereas I will gladly spend many hours tinkering with a problem until it is solved if I am enjoying the process.

So, he could probably eventually fix it but the effort and time spent being miserable isn't worth the benefit.

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I get this from my family all the time -- just because I'm a professional software engineer, they seem to think I can make their computer running Windows Millenium (First Edition) get along with their new laser printer/wireless gateway/scanner/camera/phone/internet backscratcher/etc...

Which I know fuck-all about, and don't care. Not the same thing.

programmer != IT monkey.

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Every decent programmer that I know, and I work in the industry, can build their own computer and install and configure their own operating system. You aren't much of a software professional otherwise.

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To hell with that. Unless you're a masochist, then at some point you just have to say "you know what? This is just not worth my time."

Linux is just not worth my time anymore. I would much rather spend my time hitting "Ok" in Software Update, rather than having to debug stupid driver crap over and over and over again. I know exactly how to build my own computer-- step one, go down to the Apple store.

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You're just into being insulting a lot tonight, aren't you?

Yeah, of course I've done that. Been there, done that, no more, thank you very much. I insist on installing Windows on my own computers, but that doesn't mean I have any inclination or magical ability to debug driver issues on X random platform that I've never used and don't give two shits about.

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Being insulting to you, I have a hard time caring about...

If you can't debug, why would someone want to hire you to code?

Edited at 2008-03-10 03:34 am (UTC)

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You've still 100% managed to miss the innocuous point I originally made, that installing someone elses software and writing it are two different things.

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And you miss the point that being able to debug software is still a fundamental skill if you want to work in tech.

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Wow, thank you for that blinding insight.

Yeah, I get that. I got that 15 years ago.

I'm just still trying to figure out how you got from my complain about my own family's incorrect correlations to making personal attacks.

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I haven't made a personal attack on you. You're inferring mighty hard to find one. I'm making a few simple statements, not applying them to you (unless you feel that the shoe fits). You might want to remove that chip...

Edited at 2008-03-10 03:46 am (UTC)

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'guess I'm reasoning from the tone of your opening comment.

How do the kids say - "my bad"?

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You are being an insulting asshole, and are about three words from being banned. If that's your goal, keep it up, I'll be happy to oblige. Maybe that will work as "cred" for you with whatever people you are trying to impress, none of whom are here.

I'm sorry that you don't understand the difference between programming and administration, and that you also seem unclear on the difference between "ability" and "desire". I'm not going to explain it to you and I'm tired of hearing others try to explain it to you in the face of your dickishness.

In short, shut the fuck up please.

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Kiss my ass.

You whine all the time on this blog about how you can't figure this or that out with unix or various other technical problems. It's hard to believe that you were ever a major player as a developer at a start up. It's good that you've found your new career as a failing club owner, eh? You obviously wouldn't be able to cut it in tech today.

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So, why don't you shut the fuck up for once. You need to.

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I'll take that as a "yes" then.

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You dismissed the idea of hardware problems (like bad RAM) in the earlier thread. But if it was crashing oddly before, and continuing to crash with new software, might it be worth checking? I don't imagine a night club is the ideal environment for maximizing mean time between failures.

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I haven't run memtest lately, but I certainly did the last time I tried to diagnose their crashiness, and the problem was not bad RAM. The problem is almost certainly graphics driver related.

One can probably with a straight face characterize that as "hardware problems", i.e., "you're using onboard VIA graphics, ha ha ha." Or whatever chipset has fallen out of favor lately.

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You may appreciate knowing that your old diskless Linux writeups are the basis for the diskless machines at my workplace (hundreds, if not thousands, of clients). We've had a bit more luck than you on more modern Linux, but only a bit :)

If it's in your budget, next time you care about this you might want to take a look at SunRays. They're nice little boxes, something like $200 each, and work with OpenSolaris (free) or RHEL (less free). The SunRay 150 (older model, built into a 15" LCD) goes for even less from the Unix Surplus people during DefCon. I'm fairly sure that the SunRay 2 (current cheap model, and the one I'm familiar with) will take even more abuse than the boxes you're using now since they're no-moving-parts, barely-smarter-than-a-KVM framebuffers.

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That's actually not a terrible idea. Better still, Solaris, unlike Linux, has excellent documentation.

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I do love my SunRays.

Even better, you could stick each thin client in it's own non native zone (read: lightweight VM) that looks like Linux. I think they support doing that.

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Yup, see Branded Zones.

Oh yeah, and zfs rocks. Then, when it's done, it rocks some more.

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Except when it runs out of memory and eats all your data. Or a LUN dissapears from your SAN for some reason and it kernel panics your box.

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The biggest problem I've run into these days (with any of the "free" unix-likes) is that X continues to blow goats and its hardware drivers get more and more crashy over time.

To make a wildly unfounded assertion, I'd say jwz's problems are related to the X goobery - and that something like the SunRay hardware would be a nice panacea to avoid all that crap.

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