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Which One? [Mon, 13-Jun-2005 2:51 AM]
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Attention: Please only fill out this poll if you are actually a Mac user. I don't give a flying fuck what you use on Windows! I honestly didn't think I had to spell this out, but apparently I do.

Poll #511923 Fight!
This poll is closed.
Open to: All, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 598

Browser:

View Answers

Safari
258 (43.9%)

Firefox
330 (56.1%)

Mail:

View Answers

Mail.app
337 (65.2%)

Thunderbird
180 (34.8%)

AIM:

View Answers

iChat
187 (33.2%)

Adium
206 (36.6%)

Other
170 (30.2%)

IRC:

View Answers

XChat
92 (16.2%)

Just stop using IRC
255 (45.0%)

Other
220 (38.8%)

Please explain your answers. Especially if you said "Other!"

I've been using Safari, and it seems nice, but there are a few things I miss about Firefox:

To put the "Mail" question in perspective: I currently read my mail in Netscape 3.02. It's simple but I like it. I've been using this program for gargantuan volumes of mail throughout the last (oh my god) ten years. I've hacked it to hand clicked links off to another web browser, so I don't actually use it for displaying web pages. So currently I'm SSHing from X11 on my my Mac to a Linux box, and running ns3 remotely; when I click a link in ns3, it runs a script that SSHes back to the Mac and runs some AppleScript to feed the URL in question to Safari. This, uh, kinda demented. I'd like to enter the Twenty-First Century some day.

I have mild religious objections to IMAP, and stronger objections based on the fact that I've yet to see a non-crappy implementation of an IMAP client anywhere.

When I'm at work, I read my mail by SSHing to my home machine and running ns3 from there. It's a little slow, but not so bad (since back when I wrote the damned thing, I actually metered and tuned the protocol usage, which nobody has ever done in an X program since.)

In the Twenty-First Century I will still need a way to read my email from two places at once.


Update: My current plan (subject to change, your mileage may vary): Safari; Mail.app; Adium; just stop using IRC.

linkReply

Comments:
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[User Picture]From: [info]derleiermann
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:06 AM (UTC)

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What about BitchX as the irc client? I'm way too used to text-based irc :)
[User Picture]From: [info]rosefox
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:12 AM (UTC)

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Snak! Snak!
[User Picture]From: [info]oracolodeifont
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:09 AM (UTC)

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i use 'conversation' as irc client. it's really really simple, but i'm a simple user. i'm also an eyecandy junkie and it was the one with the nicest looking interface.
[User Picture]From: [info]blarglefiend
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:23 AM (UTC)

Why Mail.app?

(Link)

Because it's one of the least objectionable IMAP clients I've used, and I've mucked about with quite a few over the years. There are things it does (like deleting or moving mail between folders, which in this nobody-bothers-implementing-delete-properly world are more or less the same thing anyway) in ways that make it feel more responsive than clients like Thunderbird, and that can make it a more pleasant experience.

Specifically, it puts the work off into a thread but updates the user interface immediately. So you're not sitting there waiting for the whole copy+delete process to take place before the messages disappear from the visible mailbox. There's potential here for inconsistency between what you see on the screen and what's on the server, but I've yet to have it crap out on me in mail-losing or -mangling ways.

It's also fairly simple, and it's a native Mac app unlike Thunderbird which still feels like a bad port even when it's got a gig of memory and a 1.8GHz G5 to work with. The downside of Mail.app is that like just about every other IMAP client out there (except Outlook with the Oracle plugin and Mulberry) it provides no ACL support, and like everything but Mulberry it has no SIEVE support. But those only really matter if (like me) you're trying to run a large corporate mail system -- you won't need either.

I will still need a way to read my email from two places at once

Which is why I deal with the IMAP overhead. A proper IMAP server (i.e., not UW IMAP) will happily let you have multiple clients poking around in the same mailbox. I use this to let me run Mail.app both at work and home 24x7, plus Squirrelmail for those odd occasions when all I can get at is a web browser.
[User Picture]From: [info]cyflea
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:56 AM (UTC)

Re: Why Mail.app?

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Yeah, seconded. I thought that nothing could ever replace Gnus, but when I Switched 2 years ago I gave Mail.app a whirl and found that it Just Worked. It might get a little bit confused every once in a while, but generally it does what I need it to do, the IMAP support's good, and you get the Unified Experience thing happening with the Apple Addressbook. I sorta miss BBDB, but it'll do.

(does Thunderbird talk to the Apple Addressbook? I was assuming you had to manually sync it into Thunderbird's own addressbook. Apologies if I'm wrong about that).
[User Picture]From: [info]pvck
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:26 AM (UTC)

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Almost certainly irrelevent, but since you asked for details on "other": On my primary (winXP) box I'm enjoying miranda as a multi-protocol IM/IRC client. This may be useful if they ever do a linux or mac port of it.

Is there any compelling reason to not use firefox?
[User Picture]From: [info]blarglefiend
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:40 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Is there any compelling reason to not use firefox?

It still feels like a bloated bad Windows port when run on a low-end Mac?

I'm using Safari even on my newer machines because I really like the RSS support. There are fancier standalone RSS clients out there, but Safari's implementation is simple.
[User Picture]From: [info]cliph
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:32 AM (UTC)

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IRSSI for IRC.
[User Picture]From: [info]diffrentcolours
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:30 AM (UTC)

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Seconded. It might be a console app, but it's got this slick, clean and simple interface that no other client has matched. There are plugins if you want to extend its functionality, but I've never needed to.

Plus you can use it with bitlbee to do all your IM stuff through your IRC client, which is handy.
[User Picture]From: [info]ewindisch
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:33 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Some people have gotten Evolution running on OSX -- on the X11 server, of course.

Yes, evolution looks like that *other* mail client, but it really is an excellent IMAP client, as far as imap clients go.
[User Picture]From: [info]chloralone
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 10:27 AM (UTC)

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Some people have gotten Evolution running on OSX

Is this another happy Linux hacker version of "some people have cut their lawn a blade at a time"?

Why in God's name suggest a pile of shit such as Evolution? Did you miss jwz's earlier posts condemning the shitpiles that are the fink/linux philosophies as a waste of time?

I imagine he just wants to reliably read his email, not go on yet another fun little hacking adventure.

Just use Apple Mail. IMAP and everything else work great. It's not a clunky Outlook clone with a buncha crap features you don't need.

If you want Linux and the shit that accompanies it, use Linux. If you want OS X, use something that doesn't suck and is made specifically for OS X. Fuck, why don't we just torch all the "Window Maker is the uber GUI" fuckers out there...
From: [info]vincel
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:34 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Browser:
    Firefox is great, but I really like the way Safari lets you control the amount of RSS data displayed.

Mail:

    I never liked Mail.app, and the new version in 10.4 seems even worse to me.

AIM:

    Fire is worth taking a look at. I prefer it to Adium. But mostly I use iChat.

IRC:

    No idea. I stopped using it a couple of years ago, since most of my friends use IM nowadays.
[User Picture]From: [info]solarbird
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 7:48 AM (UTC)

(Link)

I was also going to mention Fire; really stupid icon, but really pretty nice multi-protocol IM client. In theory, it even supports IRC. (AIM, irc, ICQ, Jabber, MSN, and Yahoo are all supported as of 1.0.4.)
[User Picture]From: [info]chrisg
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:42 AM (UTC)

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I use Miranda IM for AIM/MSN/ICQ and mIRC (with the oWiRC script) on my Windows system, and Gaim and xchat on my laptop running Ubuntu. If I IRC from a headless server, I'd use irssi.

IRC clients all have varying degrees of suck built into them.

Firefox/Thunderbird for the other two.
[User Picture]From: [info]n3koch4n
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:43 AM (UTC)

(Link)

browser: other! icab. its last beta is just out.
a nice program with interesting features, it also passes the css 'acid test'
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:45 AM (UTC)

Bzzzt.

(Link)

It was not accidental that there was no "Other" choice for "browser".
From: [info]codepope
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:49 AM (UTC)

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I use Colloquy for IRC.
[User Picture]From: [info]sbisson
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:55 AM (UTC)

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Ditto.

Oh wait - it was [info]codepope who introduced me to it!
[User Picture]From: [info]asw909
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 3:51 AM (UTC)

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AIM: Trillian 3.1. Not a Mac or Linux user, this works best for me.
[User Picture]From: [info]weev
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:12 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Trillian works great on Linux if you have Crossover Office. I use it frequently to communicate with my Windows-addicted friends via SecureIM.
[User Picture]From: [info]crs
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:06 AM (UTC)

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Oh, sorry, my votes were for what I personally use, not for my recommendations for others... Though I find that the Cmd-` keystroke, rotating between windows within an app, makes iChat's lack of tabbed chat window into no problem at all... I still use tabbed browsing with Safari, though.
[User Picture]From: [info]weev
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:06 AM (UTC)

(Link)

While I use Firefox, I find it has alot lacking. More than anything I would like to see it do better image rendering (like Opera) as Firefox's image rendering is currently abhorably slow. An Athlon 64 3500+ with 2gigs of PC4400 should not lag when displaying a page full of animated gifs.

For IRC I use irssi, the client of smart and beautiful people. The irssi gay.pl script is one of the greatest achievements of mankind. cj_ of idlenet will be remembered for generations as the man who benevolently bestowed gay.pl's glory upon humanity.

Gaim is my AIM client of choice for the moment because of it's sheer ease of hackability. Though I am about to implement an IMIRC gateway so that I can have my AIM and IRC logs all in one place for easy grepping. Also, that will allow me to have urls scraped by the irssi script which places all urls mentioned on my del.icio.us.
[User Picture]From: [info]diffrentcolours
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:45 AM (UTC)

(Link)

What's the difference between IMIRC and Bitlbee?
[User Picture]From: [info]rbeef
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:15 AM (UTC)

Camino

(Link)

I saw your comment about the lack of "Other" browser options, so ban me if you must, but I would suggest giving Camino a try. I use Safari because most of the time it just works, and Firefox takes about 5 seconds to open a new window on my iBook G4. Safari has enough features to make it nice, and works most of the time, but there are occasional site problems, and Camino gives a nice interface to the Gecko engine. It's good to have around, and if you like it enough you can use it as your primary browser.

For IM, I generally use iChat. It's not as featureful as Adium, but, again, it just works. I often participate in long-lasting group chats (I'd prefer IRC, but most of the other people have no idea what IRC is), and Adium seems to have issues with that. Additionally, iChat lets me turn off other people's fonts and give each person a random color in the chat, so I can read a legible font and have the colors help me tell who's talking. I also display names without icons.
[User Picture]From: [info]momomoto
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:23 AM (UTC)

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Although I haven't tried it on a Mac, I'm a big fan of Opera on my PeeCee. It doesn't have the plugins that Firefox does, and this may mean you don't want to use it, but the mouse gestures, the sensible tab behaviour, and the keyboard shortcuts rule the school.

[User Picture]From: [info]autopope
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:26 AM (UTC)

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I checked "other" for AIM only because there was no option for "I do not under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use IM services because they're a huge distraction when I'm working and annoying interruptions when I'm not working".

You might also want to note that Skype supports its own IM service in addition to VoIP.
From: [info]paul_c
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:28 AM (UTC)

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I use chatzilla for IRC
[User Picture]From: [info]bodyfour
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:40 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Browser: Firefox. It's just nice to have the same browser on both my home mac, my linux machine at work, and any windows machine I have to (god forbid) occasionally touch.

There's a couple annoying OS X Firefox bugs... the worst one is that if the only non-minimized window is the "Downloads" tool then all the menu options go away (so you can't just Apple-N to pop up a fresh window) The workaround is to just close the Downloads window and the menu options come back. Annoying but it doesn't really bother me too much since I usually have random browser windows open all kinds of places.

The other Firefox bug I hit from time-to-time is that a right-click context menu will occasionally get stuck in the frame. You can just pick something harmless like "Select All" from the menu and it goes away.

So it's not a perfect OS X app currently but I've found the benefits outweigh the minor annoyances for me.

Mail: I'm stuck in an earlier century than you for my read-anywhere mail solution (ssh+mutt) so I haven't played with either too much. I've tried a couple things in Mail.app and it didn't seem horribly broken, though. I'd try it first just to get stuff like Spotlight integration.

AIM: iChat. If you ever want to do audio or video chats it should Just Work. (well, iChatAV didn't agree with the default firewall setup for me... other than that it worked great)
From: [info]kirinator
Tue, 14-Jun-2005 12:52 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Most of the Firefox weirdness associated with OS X's application-based structure (the most noticeable of this being the download window thing) are fixed in the Deer Park betas, so once FF1.1 is out, this problem should be forever banished. I think they've also fixed the way it tells you your downloads will be cancelled if you close the last browser window proper. FF is a nice browser, and I alternate between it and Safari.
From: [info]node
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:42 AM (UTC)

"other"

(Link)

Browser: Safari. I miss Firefox (rather, I miss the adblock extension), but all third-party browsers look like crap on OS X. The main downside of Safari (on 10.3) is splat-q quits without a warning.
Mail: I still prefer gnus, but that's not a listed option. I use Thunderbird under Linux at my day job, and it crashes randomly all the time. I'll pick Mail.app.
AIM: iChat. Haven't tried any of the others.
IRC: I like Crikey!, but since I refuse to pay for IRC, I'm going to go with ZenIRC. Try it with [info]inoah's init-zenirc.el.
From: [info]vincel
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:49 AM (UTC)

Re: "other"

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Firefox's adblock extension works fine with Safari. Just save it as a text file, then tell Safari to use it as a style sheet.
[User Picture]From: [info]jc
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:43 AM (UTC)

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A text-based IRC client such as irssi or epic is the way to go, mainly for the remote access advantage gained from sticking it in screen and enabling sshd via System Preferences. Big two GUI clients are ircle and Snak, but many prefer apps like Colloquy.
[User Picture]From: [info]keimel
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:44 AM (UTC)

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I use Safari and Firefox interchangeably for most stuff. I tend to use Firefox for my personal browsing, safari for work.

Mail.app as opposed to anything else. It sucks less. Of course, I read most of my email off of worktime in mutt. It sucks less.

I use 'fire' as my IM client. It can use my existing GPG infrastructure to encrypt IM's completely. Of course, I've had a lot less encrypted conversations lately. Hrm.

And IRC, I use 'irc' from the command line most often. ircii would be the package I suppose?
[User Picture]From: [info]samidha
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:52 AM (UTC)

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Important things:

Safari and iChat are both HUGE memory hogs. I love iChat for the bubbles, I can't help it, but after a while the Mac is very sad running it.

I use Fire for AIM/Yahoo/ICQ, because it's very bare bones and therefore does NOT have that problem.

Warning: Mac Firefox DOES crash. However, Safari is SCARY with the amount of lag shit it causes, so stay away from it.

Just my opinions.
From: [info]jimm3uller
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 10:28 PM (UTC)

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Yeah, sorry to've praised Safari earlier without mentioning this: Safari is bloated beyond belief. This seems to be much better, but still sucky, under 10.4, or maybe it's just because now my basic news-read Bookmark is 20 tabs instead of the 50 I was reading last month -- but in any case it's much more of a hog than Firefox.
[User Picture]From: [info]diffrentcolours
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:52 AM (UTC)

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For IM, I just use Psi, a simple Jabber-only client. I talk to users on AIM, Yahoo! and MSN through Jabber transports. I don't get half the "features" of those networks, but on the plus side, I don't get half the "features" of those networks. The only one I might miss is file transfers, but that's not a feature I ever really used.

Plus I get to do OpenPGP goodness over Jabber, which is useful when working from home and discussing confidential stuff with my boss.
From: [info]stilkov
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 4:59 AM (UTC)

Omniweb

(Link)

You absolutely must take a look at Omniweb as an alternative browser, simply because it's the best thing any human has ever used to browse the Web.
[User Picture]From: [info]jerronimo
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 5:52 AM (UTC)

Re: Omniweb

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I would agree with you, but safari (especially with the "Sougudi" search plugin) has replaced it on my desktop. It's faster, and it's free.

OmniGraffle Pro and OmniOutliner are still two of my favorite dev applications however.
[User Picture]From: [info]_brute_
Mon, 13-Jun-2005 5:05 AM (UTC)

Another IRC Client: jIRCii

(Link)

Hi Jamie,
I'm going to put a plug in for my client jIRCii. Fully scriptable, developed on OS X, and ah hrmf, it does stuff. Its kind of a cross between a GUI client and a console client. If you have ever heard of and/or remember the OpenChat project its kind of in that vein.
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