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more KHTML [Sat, 11-Jan-2003 4:12 PM]
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[music |Lassigue Bendthaus -- re-cloned #1 (4)/2]

In a recent post (which he then deleted, cause he says he's working on a more accurate version) David Hyatt elaborated on why they picked KHTML instead of Gecko. (Summary: I was right.) It included these choice quotes:

Here are the two function protoypes that David Baron linked to. I think they pretty much illustrate the point perfectly.

    KHTML:
    virtual void layout();

    Gecko:
    NS_IMETHOD Reflow(nsIPresContext* aPresContext, nsHTMLReflowMetrics& aMetrics, const nsHTMLReflowState& aReflowState, nsReflowStatus& aStatus);

And later, from David Baron:

Why is Mozilla's layout engine so big and complex? Perhaps the simple answer is that there were too many people available to write it, and they wrote as much code as they could. After all, they didn't have any incentives to keep the code small.

That's so true. Though I think "second system syndrome" is an equally important reason for Mozilla's total lack of urgency and closure: too many of the people involved (who liked to describe themselves as "architects", which is always telling) thought of the whole project as "finally, we get to rewrite it, but right this time!" and that attitude basically never results in usable, working code appearing before it's far too late to matter any more.

linkReply

Comments:
[User Picture]From: [info]build
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 4:42 PM (UTC)

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Right, but Safari sucks and Chimera doesn't. Who cares if Gecko code is more difficult to use?
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 4:47 PM (UTC)

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Do you think all this code writes itself?
[User Picture]From: [info]build
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 4:55 PM (UTC)

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Just because something is cheap doesn't mean you should buy it.

Of course the code doesen't write itself. But there is an excellent open-source Gecko based Cocoa browser out there already. The work was done, all they had to do was add their UI improvements.

[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 5:00 PM (UTC)

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Well, apparently their opinions are different than yours on how "excellent" it is. And their arguments were not only about code quality, but also things that users care a lot about, like startup time.

Which one survives will depend on which one improves fastest, and responds to unanticipated future user requirements best, which is largely a function of which one can attract the better and more motivated programmers. Quality of the existing code is hardly irrelevant to that.
[User Picture]From: [info]pexor
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 6:32 PM (UTC)

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Don't you love it when people make extreme statements of opinion as if they were facts; make extreme, yet unsubstantiated claims as if they were facts; and trivialize things they either don't understand or disagree with without being able to justify their disagreement?

Unix sucks, Windows is awesome, writing operating systems is easy, it doesn't matter if they're hard to use as long as they get created, you're wrong, and I'm right. Don't *even* disagree with me, because I have the perfect rubber man/glue man retort ready.
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 6:34 PM (UTC)

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That sounds like something Hitler would say.
[User Picture]From: [info]cortana
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 5:15 PM (UTC)

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Then again, Safari's improving already and the community seems to be embracing it for a few reasons: it's fast, it's pretty, it's (relatively) compatible. Yeah, it's not tabbed, but I could see how it could be done if the community wants it (and they do). There's a lot that Safari is that Chimera is not.
[User Picture]From: [info]chanson
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 2:02 AM (UTC)

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I had been tracking Chimera - the "excellent open-source Gecko based Cocoa browser" - daily builds for a couple of weeks as of this Tuesday morning, eagerly waiting for the day it would be good enough to replace OmniWeb as my default browser.

I made Safari my default browser on Wednesday morning. And I'm pretty picky when it comes to human interface design in software that I use - I've even filed a bug against iJournal for the wording of the buttons in an alert sheets.

(What's even cooler about the KHTML-based WebCore framework in Safari is that Omni is likely to use it in OmniWeb 5, since their major issues have historically been speed and standards compliance. It'll let them continue to provide a great pro browser, while not having to worry much about the rendering engine or speed any more.)
[User Picture]From: [info]rzr_grl
Mon, 13-Jan-2003 2:22 AM (UTC)

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Chimera doesn't suck?
Riiiiiiggghhhht.
[User Picture]From: [info]build
Mon, 13-Jan-2003 7:35 AM (UTC)

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To the Safari's credit, Memeufacture came up specifically on Hyatt's weblog as buggy, and the issues seem to have been addressed. (Proof that if you bitch loud enough, I suppose...)

Chimera doesn't suck though. The javascript dom support and rendering seem spot-on, plus tabs work great.
[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 6:16 PM (UTC)

That quote's from Hyatt's "Surfin' Safari"?

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I'm looking at Hyatt's blog on the moz'zine site; at the moment this page covers from 7JAN till 6PM this evening (11JAN). It's good some nice stuff on DOM, CSS, and UA strings, and links to some intererting blogs. But I don't see that text you seem to have quoted. 'Sup?
[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 6:37 PM (UTC)

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*I'm starting to like those googley eyes!*

I searched both "top" and "archived" for Baron (swinging my rubber prairie chicken around all the while) ... no joy.

Yaa, RSS rawks.

I wanna get into architects coding (I don't want an architect to be laying my carpet, but if my carpet layer wants to have dreams of architecture, that's just fine by me) but two friends from SFX jazz are in town tonight and, as you know, a man's gotta &tc &tc &tc (it's 22:33 here).

Meme stream: patches are like proof of concept: function is the litmus, yes? But really, who says, "Ah! It works! I'm done!" really? hasta
[User Picture]From: [info]brad
Sat, 11-Jan-2003 7:29 PM (UTC)

Re: That quote's from Hyatt's "Surfin' Safari"?

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Another unintended benefit of RSS!

Heh. Very cool.
[User Picture]From: [info]josephgrossberg
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 9:25 AM (UTC)

wait ... i thought he was an Apple guy now ...

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If Hyatt's not paid by AOL, why can't he talk all the shit he wants?

Does he share part of the blame for Netscape being a mess?

Otherwise, why would he unpublish that post?

Lame
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 1:08 PM (UTC)

Re: That quote's from Hyatt's "Surfin' Safari"?

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David Hyatt wrote:

I said some things about Gecko that aren't accurate (especially in that initial draft), and I'm currently working on a better version of the post (that largely makes the same point but without the inaccuracies).
[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 6:57 PM (UTC)

Version control and Revision

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There's an interesting thread happening at revjim net: Weblogging: best practices? ... "If a tutorial or otherwise instructive piece of information is written and posted into a weblog, what is the best method to use to update it?"

With a very fresh example in mind (I know I saw a good piece on integrating Safari and Sherlock because I have a clear mental picture of it ... complete with screen-grab; where'd'it go?!!), I know how much time I can burn up looking for something. If it's been moved/altered, then it's like trying to nail a negative hypothesis. !phun
[User Picture]From: [info]macbrain
Tue, 14-Jan-2003 8:32 AM (UTC)

Re: Version control and Revision

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[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Tue, 14-Jan-2003 9:42 AM (UTC)

!bingo!

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Looks like it, yes. Thanks muchly!
*I pondered this post, late last night ... wondering if web-world would manifest its serendipitous generosity. gotta luv it!

I'm gonna spend some time today trying to find sets of obvious search terms that /fail/ to bring kottke.org to light.*
[User Picture]From: [info]thesliver
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 7:03 AM (UTC)

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A lot of people seemed to think that

a) The Bazaar means lots of people writing code on the same market stall with different bits of cloth.
b) Better Architecture Means More Interfaces (I wish BAMMI meant something crude)
c) One Size Fits All means baggy at the crotch and don't check the quality of the seams.

[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Sun, 12-Jan-2003 7:11 PM (UTC)

"No payment no interest for 12 months ...."

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*ooh, news of theft from Heathrow ... $11M worth of P4!!*

If I can't afford to make any payments on that chestfield set right now, will I be able to pay it off in a year from now? Maybe ... okay, maybe. But likely I'll get nailed with 12 months of 29% interest.

It slays me that people actually buy into, "You may not have time to do it right, but you'll always have time to fix it." That sophistry is just ... sophistry. (Granted, it is sometimes true.)

"Good enough" often is good enough, as an end result. But since I quite normally fall short of my initial goal, if I set out aiming at good enough I'm going to end up with gack. 'seems to me, anyhow.
[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Mon, 13-Jan-2003 9:43 AM (UTC)

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Hylton Jolliffe at Premium Blend: notable & quotable references this from
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<a [...] http://www.firstmonday.org/">') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Hylton Jolliffe at <a href="http://www.corante.com/premiumblend/20030101.shtml#17438">Premium Blend: notable & quotable</a> references this from <a href="<a href="http://www.firstmonday.org/">First Monday</a>: <a href="http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue8_1/nichols/index.html">The usability of open source software</a>: "Improvements in the usability of open source software do not necessarily mean that such software will displace proprietary software from the desktop... However improved usability is a necessary condition for such a spread."
[User Picture]From: [info]jcurious
Mon, 13-Jan-2003 10:07 PM (UTC)

I'm just wondering if...

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Apple is going to catch on to the "release early, release often" idea.. hell.. even if it's just for those people who signed on to thier dev network or whatever... I keep reading X,Y,Z have been fixed.. but I can't use/test it till apple releases thier next "beta".. blech
[User Picture]From: [info]marmoset
Tue, 14-Jan-2003 9:55 AM (UTC)

Re: I'm just wondering if...

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I was thinking about this earlier. It's already been demonstrated that (thanks to the way frameworks work on OSX) you can compile your own drop-in replacement versions for Webcore and JavaScript core), so presumably just placing the live versions of these on a publicly accessible read-only CVS server would be enough to allow reasonably technically savvy users to keep up with rendering-engine changes. The risk is that someone would do a "ChimeraKnight" with these and make it far too easy for people who really shouldn't be running pre-release software (those unwilling/unable to file meaningful/useful bug reports, journalists) to do so.
[User Picture]From: [info]hfx_ben
Tue, 14-Jan-2003 9:50 AM (UTC)

Mozine poll and discussion re: Safari

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Apple announced Safari, its KHTML-based OS X browser, at Macworld San Francisco this month. Total Votes So Far: 721. Thoughts?