jwz - Palm's App Catalog, part 2 [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
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Palm's App Catalog, part 2 [Tue, 6-Oct-2009 5:29 PM]
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[music |Gang of Four -- What We All Want]

Palm made some announcements yesterday, so I suppose I ought to post a follow-up to my post about the nightmare of dealing with their App Catalog submission process.

After I posted that, it really made the rounds. I was surprised at how much press it got so quickly. So, with a PR disaster like that, you'd think the first thing Palm would do would be to finally post my apps, right? Well, they still haven't. Even though they stated their intention of posting my two applications in their app catalog way back in early July, neither the intervening months, nor the recent bad press, has caused them to actually post them.

Obviously I'm more concerned about the bigger picture: I want Palm to make it easy for all developers to get their software into the hands of anyone who wants it, without Palm being a roadblock between them.

But still, if you were Palm, wouldn't your first step be to actually resolve the problem for the guy who brought your broken system to the attention of the press? I guess they don't see it that way.

One of the new guys at Palm twitted at me that he wanted to talk on the phone about this stuff, and I replied, "What more is there to say? Just post my apps already." Apparently the peanut gallery thinks that was "rude", but after having spent three months, thirty-ish emails, and the aforementioned 160-line blog post explaining my position, I don't think they really require clarification on where I'm coming from. Seriously, have I been unclear?

The only conversation I'm really interested in having about this at this point is one that ends with them saying, "Hey, your apps are in the app catalog now." And you know, a one-line email saying that would do just fine. We don't have to do that on the phone.

Anyway, yesterday they made an announcement. Here's their press release and here's their attempt to explain what the press release says in English.

I found even the second link somewhat confusing, but as far as I can decipher, what it says is this: starting in December, developers will have these three options:

  1. Sell or give away your app through Palm's App Catalog, after Palm has reviewed, nitpicked and finally approved your app, and after you have paid $99 per year and $50 per application. Palm keeps 30% of every sale.

  2. Sell or give away your app through some kind of "second-class-citizen" app catalog that Palm intends to create, without Palm reviewing your app first. You still have to pay $99, and Palm still keeps 30% of every sale, but you don't have to pay $50 per app.

  3. If your app uses one of the recognized open source licenses (BSD, GPL, etc.) then Palm will let you give away your app in that "second-class-citizen" app catalog without paying for the privilege.

We still really have no idea what this second-class-citizen app catalog will look like, since they say it won't exist for two to three months. That means it doesn't help those of us who have working apps today that we would like to get into the hands of our users today, but it's a step in the right direction, assuming that getting things into the second-class-citizen catalog is a whole lot easier than getting it into the "real" catalog has been so far. (It won't surprise you to learn that based on their past behavior, I don't think that's a particularly likely assumption. But we'll see.)

But this is all needlessly complicated.

Here's what I want:

  1. A developer makes the executable of their application available on their own web site.
  2. A user visits the developer's web site via the web browser on their phone, and clicks on the link.
  3. A dialog box asks, "Are you sure you want to do this crazy thing?"
  4. The application installs. Done.

That's how it worked on PalmOS. That's how it works on desktop computers! Anything more complicated than that is just stupid.

linkReply

Comments:
[User Picture]From: [info]beschizza
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 12:43 AM (UTC)

(Link)

30% of stupid adds up.
[User Picture]From: [info]lionsphil
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:29 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Not if nobody will buy the fucking things because nobody has developed applications for the fucking thing because if you're going to dance through somebody's stupid closed hoops, it may as well be Apple's because they have the market share.

(We shall assume that persons such as myself who won't buy the fucking things because we remember how it worked on PalmOS and quite liked that model for small-scale development and distribution of amusing little hacks are irrelevant in the grand scale of things, for we probably are.)
[User Picture]From: [info]daveman692
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:27 AM (UTC)

(Link)

The other bit they announced last night is that you can submit your app and get back a public URL which lets any Pre owner download and install your app without any review by Palm. I'm not sure where the instructions for this are, but it should avoid any approvals and the app catalog entirely.
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:35 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Yes, that is the "second-class-citizen app catalog" to which I was referring in points #2 and #3.
[User Picture]From: [info]mutiny
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:39 AM (UTC)

(Link)

That would cut them out as the middle-man! How are they supposed to make a boatload of cash from other people's apps, like Apple, doing it that way?
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:43 AM (UTC)

(Link)

By providing a service for which people are willing to pay?

If someone feels it is of value to them to have their application listed in Palm's official app catalog, they will pay for that. If they don't think it's of value, then they should be free to distribute their applications however they damned well please. Palm should get paid for this if Palm's resources are being used. If someone is downloading an application directly from my site, Palm doesn't even need to know that I exist, so why should I pay them?
[User Picture]From: [info]fo0bar
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:46 AM (UTC)

(Link)

This sort of lunacy seems to happen with any sort of app repository.

I had been distributing the official Hampr Firefox extension through the Hampr website, but though, "hey, addons.mozilla.org seems to be where all of the cool kids are." So I uploaded it to AMO, where all new extensions were placed in the Leper Colony. In the Leper Colony, users don't get notified of updates, and had to sign up for an AMO account to even be allowed to download the extension (this has since been changed).

So I submitted the extension for inclusion in the regular archive. 5 days later, they came back with "Your extension seems to use object prefix names and could cause a collision with another extension called 'Hampr'. (Gecko uses a global namespace, even for extensions.) Change your extension to put everything under a single mega-object." Fine, whatever. I uploaded a new version to the Leper Colony and re-submitted my request. And waited.

I finally gave up after 3 months of waiting, especially when I found out that even updates would get placed in the Leper Colony and have to be manually reviewed. I went back to distributing it via the Hampr website, where it, you know, works.

And yet the NoScript guy somehow manages to get new updates released to the public AMO site every 3 days or so.
[User Picture]From: [info]lionsphil
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 2:01 AM (UTC)

(Link)

It's almost as if these big, centralised systems didn't scale, or something!

Which, you know, is pretty fucking ironic for a web browser, and a platform called WebOS.

"The decision to make the Web an open system was necessary for it to be universal. You can't propose that something be a universal space and at the same time keep control of it."—Tim Berners-Lee, 1998
[User Picture]From: [info]luserspaz
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 12:32 PM (UTC)

(Link)

The difference here is that you can still distribute your Firefox extension from your own website. Yes, the user will get an extra info bar saying "This site is trying to install software", but that's just a speed bump. There's nothing technically preventing it from working.

addons.mozilla.org does have some problems, but unlike with Apple or Palm, it's optional, and is only there to provide a smoother experience for end-users.
[User Picture]From: [info]netsharc
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:53 AM (UTC)

But 30%!

(Link)

But if they do it your way, they won't get 30% of the cut! A commercial developer can just put the download link behind a PayPal link, and Palm doesn't get any money. Looks like potential profits ("look at Apple, they sold 2 billion fart apps!") has trumped developer-friendliness this time.

So they need to control the distribution method, and I assume only allowing apps to be installed from their store.palm.com (or whatever) server is their best option.

I had a thought of an alternative way though, which is still inconvenient for you:
1. Developer registers his public key with Palm
2. Developer signs his binaries, publishes it on his site.
3. When the device tries to install the binary, it asks Palm's server if the developer's key is still valid. The key can be revoked for breaking whatever rules Palm might have (Hmm, how to make it work for selective blocking of some apps but not all?).

The binary can still be put behind a pay-wall, but I guess the installer can check with the main server and tell the user "The developer has said this binary is free, if you paid for it, please contact us.".
[User Picture]From: [info]annodomini
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 4:17 AM (UTC)

Re: But 30%!

(Link)

Why does Palm need to get a 30% cut of all app sales?

Apple doesn't get a 30% cut of all sales for software I buy on my Mac. Microsoft doesn't get a 30% cut on all sales for software on Windows. Why should Apple get a cut of all iPhone apps, or Palm of all WebOS apps? It's a stupid business model that harms the platform, and makes it much more valuable to write stupid throwaway iFart apps for 99¢ than to develop real, new, innovative apps that take time and effort and might simply be rejected on the whim of someone who thinks that they might compete a little too much with the vendor supplied apps.
[User Picture]From: [info]siraris
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 2:53 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Are you still going on about this? Really? Are you that indignant? Do you really not understand the press release? I had no trouble reading, and understanding it, and neither did Tech Crunch who lays it out for you clearly.

What you ask for in your 4 point bulleted list, is EXACTLY what Palm is going to do.

As for your apps not being posted, there has to be a reason, and Palm has no obligation whatsoever at this point to tell you why they weren't. Many apps have already been posted, and ALL of them were free. You are submitting your app to Palm in order for them, by their good graces, to put in their app catalog. This is a service that is still in beta, and you, as a developer, should understand as well as anyone what that means.

Your whining has made a relatively large corporation change its policies in a matter of weeks. Instead of being pleased, and proud of that fact, you just continue to bicker and whine on your journal because you didn't get everything you wanted. How egomaniacal can you be?

[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 3:08 AM (UTC)

(Link)

First of all, fuck you too. Let's just get that out of the way.

Second, if you don't like what I write about on my blog, you should by all means feel free not to read it.

Third, what Palm said, and what Tech Crunch repeated -- "developers can simply submit their apps to Palm, and Palm will return to them a URL that they can then blog" -- is most emphatically not what I asked for in point 4. If they are going to "give me a URL" then that means the data is hosted on their servers, but more to the point, it means I have to go through Palm to get my application into the hands of my users.

Maybe that's not what they meant. But that's what they said. I am taking them at their word. I'm sorry your reading comprehension skills seem to be stunted.

Fourth, my entire point in all this is that I should not have to rely on Palm's "graces", whether "good" or not, to distribute my applications to people who want to run them. That, dear sir, is Bullshit.
[User Picture]From: [info]houdini_cs
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 2:58 AM (UTC)

(Link)

My BlackBerry (Tour, though I don't think that matters) does what you're asking for. There's an app store, or I can just go to some website and say "hey, I know what I'm doing, run that thing".
[User Picture]From: [info]stormgren
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 12:30 PM (UTC)

(Link)

Given how corporate-oriented RIM is in general, the fact that a standalone Blackberry is easier to get apps on and has a generally better (or at least more complete) development environment as compared to the Pre's blows my mind.

I'm a rather happy Pre owner (for the moment) after switching from the Blackberry, I just wish Palm would hurry up and actually complete WebOS before I get too frustrated with it.

(Hey Palm, the Internet is not just HTTP, how about some actual sockets support?)
From: [info]dasht
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 4:45 AM (UTC)

trollbait fuckme i'll regret this in the morning

(Link)

In a world with software freedom. these kinds of problems wouldn't come up. Just sayin'

-t
[User Picture]From: [info]notthebuddha
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 4:55 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Isn't it justifiable for Palm to keep its hand in enough to react to an app that that yields problems outside itself when installed?
From: [info]sherm
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 5:48 AM (UTC)

(Link)

The last 30 years of computing history say "hell no, it's not justifiable."

The thing is, Palm is aware of this to the degree that their own previous products do things "right" and this scheme is only in play because Apple is bringing in dumptrucks full of cash with it.
[User Picture]From: [info]edouardp
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 5:14 AM (UTC)

(Link)

I was going to write that Apple is to blame, but that's really a bit too simplistic. It really boils down to people looking at something that is successful and managing to walk away with the wrong lesson.

Lesson 1: "Apple has created an infrastructure to make it as easy as possible for customers and developers to interact."

Lesson 2: "Wow - Apple is making whaleloads of money from their developer's work!"

If we assume that Palm has taken away the second lesson, then their actions seem pretty logical. "Apps available from other websites? How do we make whaleloads of money then?" "Free apps? Well how are we going to make whaleloads of money off of those?"

On the flip side, the press you are getting has quite possibly made them go "Hey - this guy is making us look bad! That might hurt us making whaleloads of money if our
developers read about it and decide to jump over to Apple."

It's *almost* as if someone at Palm is considering that they need the developers more than the developers need them. But I'm sure the dreams of dancing dollar signs and private jets will nip that kind of defeatist thinking in the bud. "Look - I put it all in the spreadsheet; simply assuming we are twice as successful as Apple means we make BILLIONS from these developers!!" They wouldn't want to let anything get in the way of that.

I once loved Palm (actually I still have fond memories of my Palm V, and even of some of their subsequent releases), so I understand where you are coming from. Continue fighting the good fight!
[User Picture]From: [info]illyich
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 7:08 AM (UTC)

Doesn't it seem strange

(Link)

that the people who feel like they are representing Palm's interest in this PR altercation haven't bothered to ask, "Gee, what was Palm's model the last time they were doing well?"
[User Picture]From: [info]rapier1
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 7:30 PM (UTC)

Re: Doesn't it seem strange

(Link)

Does Palm's model from ten years ago actually make sense today though?
From: [info]meshuga
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 7:42 AM (UTC)

Anyone else here even own a pre?

(Link)

Ever seen filecoaster? Or Preware? Two repos that I use everyday with tons of webos apps, outside of palms control. (Actually, I switched to Preware exclusively now, but used Filecoaster for months prior)

In fact, some apps, like GDial Pro, are in both the Real App Catalog and homebrew catalogs like FileCoaster and Preware, with Palms consent. Same with Music Player Remixed, and many others apps. I think jwz is blowing this a little out of proportion, considering avenues do exist that Palm is aware of to get apps and they are a-ok with it. True, you can't goto any website in the world and install an .ipkg for webos, but at least if you feel Palm, Inc. is too draconian there is alternatives.

Both Music Player Remixed and GDial Pro (the beta ver, not the app catalog ver) use undocumented APIs so Palm has not allowed them yet, but said they can exist in homebrew land until the time comes when they are using published APIs.
This was all covered on precentral.net.
[User Picture]From: [info]jwz
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 7:49 AM (UTC)

Re: Anyone else here even own a pre?

(Link)

I think it's awesome -- and somewhat inevitable -- that people have been able to hack around Palm's broken system, just like people jailbreak iPhones, but it's just not easy enough, and probably never will be. If your apps can only be run on jailbroken phones, you will lose out on the vast majority of your potential users. Any sane developer would like their apps to be runnable by people who do not have the early-adopter "maker"-like attitude that causes them to take the virtual screwdriver to their phone. It's great that those people are out there, but most people -- sane, normal people -- are afraid of breaking something that way, and won't ever do it.

I want Palm to fix their broken system so that Preware is no longer necessary.
[User Picture]From: [info]kyhwana
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 8:12 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Durp. I know two people who work at palm! Well, one works in ITS and the other in QA, but still.. will point them this way
[User Picture]From: [info]lovingboth
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 8:43 AM (UTC)

(Link)

Just looking at the press release, I have two comments...

a) If I wanted people not to be able to read all of something, I'd have it display as white on increasingly light blue too.

b) The problem is at the start of the second paragraph: '"Our program will be unlike anything currently available..." said Katie Mitic, senior vice president, Product Marketing, Palm, Inc.'
[User Picture]From: [info]satanlvsu2
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:19 PM (UTC)

Was it rude?

(Link)

I think so.

Why give a hard time to the guy who's been there a week and is reaching out? He's not going to be the one to press the magic "post JWZ's apps" button, but now he's not going to be able to use "talking with me is a waste of his time" as motivation to convince co-workers (who also treat him with "you've been here a whole week dude") to get their shit together to do what they need to do.
[User Picture]From: [info]lionsphil
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:53 PM (UTC)

Re: Was it rude?

(Link)

It's twitter. Of course it's going to be a curt response, jwz or not. Within the stupid confines of idiotic technology, there is little space for civility. (156 characters)

Presumably Pre development is filed entirely under "hobby" in jwz's schedule, and when was the last time you wanted to spend your downtime having phone conversations reiterating the same information about the same stupid obstacles to letting other people at your hobby hacks?
[User Picture]From: [info]bbe
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 1:38 PM (UTC)

(Link)

"That's how it worked on PalmOS. That's how it works on desktop computers! Anything more complicated than that is just stupid."

Agreed, and that's why I'm sticking with my old phone as long as possible and hoping some sense comes into the modern smartphone market before I have to upgrade.
[User Picture]From: [info]mister_borogove
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 3:26 PM (UTC)

(Link)

Likewise, because I can't install apps easily on any refrigerator currently on the market, I'm sticking with my ice-chest.
[User Picture]From: [info]figital
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 3:29 PM (UTC)

Web Page

(Link)

I'll continue to build my "mobile apps" as AJAX applications which mimic native app behavior as much as possible. Eventually something like WebKit is going to have to provide access to your GPS, "accellerometer", etc. jQtouch is a good start. I've noticed lots of large mobile apps from BofA and Facebook already leveraging this (correct) approach.

Fennec and Mozilla will solve this problem (and their "app store" works just fine).
[User Picture]From: [info]cdavies
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 7:50 PM (UTC)

Re: Web Page

(Link)

And that's why, come the revolution, you and your kind will be first against the wall.

Web apps. Pffft.
[User Picture]From: [info]misterfister666
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 4:10 PM (UTC)

(Link)

>they say it won't exist for two to three months.

Which is the same as saying it's never going to exist.

Six weeks is the software event horizon. Once projects have
been thought through, designed, and have had appropriate
resources assigned, they tend to acquire firm milestones in
the 6-week range. Any deadline more than six weeks out is
equivalent to saying, "we don't know what we're doing."

They're hoping all this will blow over. Or get snowed under
the boatload of cash that's -- real soon now -- certain to
come piling in to their app store.





From: [info]fixedd
Wed, 7-Oct-2009 11:09 PM (UTC)

(Link)

Firm milestones doesn't == deliverables.
From: [info]version_3
Thu, 8-Oct-2009 1:27 AM (UTC)

Just sayin

(Link)

Yo JWZ, I'm happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but Rolex had the best clock of all time, OF ALL TIME!
[User Picture]From: [info]edouardp
Thu, 8-Oct-2009 4:09 AM (UTC)

Re: Just sayin

(Link)

Wow - I saw you all saying how totally bitchin it would be to say that to JWZ, like, almost two days ago on some Palm forum. Seems like one of you finally plucked up the courage to walk up to the man and say your piece. Well, comment on his livejournal. I'm sure it all takes plenty of courage either way.

Now you can go back to your little friends and say "ha ha - I totally told him doodz!". I'm sure they'll all be terribly impressed.

Hmmm, let's recap for a second:

"Yo JWZ, I'm happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but Rolex had the best clock of all time, OF ALL TIME!"

It *does* make you sound a bit like a 14-year old. Which, if you're a 13-year old, is totally a compliment.